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Original post made
on Nov 11, 2009
Islam the religion of peace and love?
Can you blame the belief system of 2 billion human beings who live quite peacefully in many countries all over the world for the actions of one obviously unbalanced individual?
Danville also has a First Amendment violation problem by making contents of material allowed to be posted on city maintained kiosks regulated by the city (and its ignorant clerks).
I am glad that the DA's charges include hate crime. For to long, the charges of hate crimes have not included victims who were Catholics and Christians. Yelling anti-Christian comments and committing a battery while pulling off a person's crucifix is a hate crime, just like the person who broke into St.Isidore and ransacked the church and messed with the sacred tabernacle committed a hate crime. Finally, this criminal worked in the mall for years speaking english, had no problem yelling out offensive threats in english, but now claims he needs an interpreter when he is arrested?
blame 2 billion individuals? you bet, if you consider that they might be coming at you one at a time !
Blame them? Yes! Of course they live in peace with each other because they don't want to kill each other. They want to kill the infidel. That's you!
I think former national security advisor Richard Clarke had it right in his book Against All Enemies when he indicated that there are 2B Muslims in the world, about 300M of whom are in a position to keep up with/care about world affairs, and fewer than 100K of those wish harm to the First World. That's 0.005% of all Muslims, almost all of whom lack the wherewithal to "come at you."
Now, we've pushed some of the second group into the Hater camp by our prior policies, but "Richard's" demonization, above, of a third of the world's population is absurd and only serves to drive the wedge. Under different circumstances of upbringing, that kind of xenophobic approach would be quite at home inveighing against the US as the Great Satan.
And I certainly agree with "American" that the hate crimes laws should be evenly enforced, but I do not agree with the persecution complex suggested by the phrase "for to [sic] long...". Does American have any credible evidence that hate crimes laws have been unevenly enforced? If so, I'd like to hear it.
A criminal ransacks a Catholic Church, messes with the sacred Tabernacle. A criminal yells anti-Christian threats and commits a battery by pulling a crucifix off a victim. These stories barely make the local news, with almost no media coverage, and virtually no response, much less outrage, from the community. But if a criminal ransacked the NAACP office and messed with their important symbols, or yelled homophobic threats while pulling a rainbow necklace off a victim and committing a battery, it would be national news, with protest rallies, boycotts, and ambulance chasing lawyers trying their cases in the media. If you do not acknowledge the truth of these statements, and the inherent imbalance in how society reacts to certain hate crime situations, you are not being intellectually honest, Citizen Paine.
Gee, I sure am some kind of damn glad that there are only 100 thousand Muslims who wish harm to the First World since it only took 19 Muslims to take down the World Trade Center.
Why did Hamid need an interpreter to request a public defender? I thought he was an employee at the mall. I bet he speaks English well enough to sell his products to us nasty Infidels. Hmmm... weird.
Lt Elerick is quoted as saying:
"Elerick said much of the man's speech was similar to the loud scene of the Christian activists who frequent downtown Pleasanton. The big difference, however, was that Hamid was on private property and had physical contact with someone."
Lt, this is NOT equivalent, as the Christian demonstrators do NOT assault people. Stop trying to justify bad behavior of other "religious" people by associating it to Christian behavior. You better figure out who are the real dangers to our society.
American: your earlier comment was about the enforcement of hate crimes laws, and now you're off on an unfocused rant, flailing away at the great unnamed "They." I'm guessing your anger is born of fear that the inclusion of those other groups in the 'American' conversation somehow weakens your standing as a member of the majority, culturally, religiously, philosophically. It's just a guess, but I really wonder what's driving that fear -- other than Rupert Murdoch's storm troopers, I mean.
Rick: I'm reminded of The Merry Minuet: Web Link
The whole world is festering, With unhappy souls,
The French hate the Germans, The Germans hate the Poles.
Italians hate Yugoslavs, South Africans hate the Dutch,
And I don't like anybody very much!
They're rioting in Africa, There's strife in Iran,
What nature doesn't do to us, Will be done by our fellow man.
How many folks who ID themselves as Christians wish harm to "the Muslims," in general? I don't know, but I'm guessing it's a Lot more than 100K, world-wide. And all that hatred does nobody any good. There are monstrous members of lunatic fringes of just about every religious group or culture you can name. You play into their hand when you demonize the whole group as a result of your failure to discern the differences.
And the beat goes on...
Citizen Paine, you know NOTHING about Christians. You also seem to have a significant bias against both Christians and conservatives. When is the last time that you saw a Christian cut off the head of a Muslim?
You may also ask yourself what the common thread in all the violence in the world is. I don't expect that you will be able to understand this through your biased view of the world.
BTW, I do not subscribe to your everyone hates everyone view of the world. You may want to do a little introspection.
Hi, Danville. I just wanted to echo all of my fellow righwingers' aggressively myopic worldview and extend it to the problem of the germ-mongering aliens and street urchins who call themselves illegals and "po' fo'ks". I think Mayor Newell should declare an emergency ordinance establishing Danville PD-staffed checkpoints at Town borders that deny entry to all minorities and even non-Hispanic whites who don't fall under a tax bracket of 28% or higher. For diplomatic purposes we could grant two-hour passes to Mexicans, but limit their movements to their Tacomas and the perimeters of our front yards. To preserve the idealized and invented memory of the Town I made up and love, MY 41,000-resident Town, this is what Danville needs right now. Just a thought.
john: half of us are naive, and it's not me. If you'll read what I actually wrote, I referred to folks who ID themselves as Christians -- if you don't think horrible things have been done in the name of that religion, and most others, you just haven't been paying attention.
I am thoroughly versed in Christian doctrine AND Christian reality, and there's a huge gulf betwixt the two -- as there is with every religious and cultural group. I ain't agi'n Christianity -- my own spiritual views draw heavily from that Tradition, as well as others, seeking [gasp] the Common Threads among 'em.
My whole argument, for those who are paying attention, is that no group has a monopoly on virtue or evil, and to lump them all together is The First Mistake.
Dick, yes you do have a myopic view. I would expect that Bill's comment was sarcastic, but inappropriate. Nobody (but you) is suggesting anything but inclusion of all but those who are actively assaulting peaceful citizens in a mall.
Citizen, I'm always interested in your responses and appreciate that you hang in there and try to offer an alternative (reasoned) viewpoint. I generally give up on this forum entirely.
The fact that extremists exist in every religion is frequently lost when people discuss their own faith. That this person was taken to John George Pavilion on a psych hold rather than jail is a clear indicator that he may have a mental health issue. Many with mental illness pathology delve into religious extremism to sublimate frightening feelings. I would not blame all Christians for crimes committed by extremists who claim they are Christian, nor will I blame all Muslims for the act of this, or other, unbalanced person(s).
No doubt, all people should be punished for crimes they commit - whether they bomb a clinic that provides abortions, ransack a temple, or assault a person wearing a crucifix. Christian, Muslim or (fill in the blank) - crimes against others should not be tolerated. But to assume that the actions of some reflect the beliefs of the majority denigrates the good of all religious groups.
Citizen Paine, You must then know that Christians are not perfect, therefore mistakes are made. The goal of Christians is to fill the gulf.
The mistake is made when you equate a religion which preaches peace to one which advocates the conversion at the point of sword. You are perpetuating a moral equivalency by your argument.
Bless you, Sharon. And I mean that in the most sincere, inclusive and ecumenical sense!
John: I fear, Christian soldier, that you're over-simplifying the dogma on both ends. I believe there's a lot more moral equivalency than you do, that's true, especially where it matters: as practiced. I'm also a lot more interested in the common ethical elements than the diversions -- that's where progress toward peace resides.
I wonder, too, why folks seem to be so eager to condemn a huge fraction of the world's population, whom they don't understand, they'll never meet, and who at least are "churched?" And why there's so much we-in' and theyin' on this board, and so precious little beatitudin' and lovin' thy neighbor, as thyself?
Has anyone here actually read the Quran? Seriously? Nowehere in it does Mohammed command or instruct his followers to commit acts of violence or hostility against non-believers.
Citizen Paine, Yes I am and it is simplified, however, and I have seen a lot more examples of Muslim intolerance to western culture in these days. Do you know that the Muslim teenager who was forced to return to her family from her Florida sanctuary was run over and killed by her father?
I am sure that you will cite the example where the abortion doctor was killed by a "Christian". That act was soundly condemned by the Christian community (We have a commandment). I do not see the same condemnation by the Muslim community to the above atrocity as well as the cited beheadings.
Let me reiterate that my target is NOT the general Muslim community, but the Radical Muslim adherents to the religion. I have seen through these examples that these are is not just isolated incidents.
Finally, this nation was founded on the right to express and worship your selected religion, not to be forced to hide it behind closed doors. I believe that this is true of all religions. No one should be subjected to someone ripping off a crucifix from their neck.
Anyone who doesn't realize that the most important goal of the Muslim religion is to conquer and convert the infidel is just turning a blind eye to what has transpired in the world during the last decade. If I am wrong, then there are two Muslim religions posing as one. In the last analysis I believe the Muslims would choose their religion over their country and that is a frightening thought.
In Lt. Elerick's defense, we have to assume that it was this reporter who brought up the Christian activists in a bid to create some p.c. relativism. I also find it interesting that the reporter didn't think it was worth reporting the actual store where the assailant works.
WOW! Is that true that the teenage girl from Florida was killed by her father???? How come I didn't hear anything about that in the news?
Zach, you are wrong. Sura 9:29 for starts, also 9:111 gives more context.
Not that most believe or follow this.
John, can you allow for the possibility that stories on Muslim extremism are overrepresented by the media in this country? It makes for a popular storyline. Conversely, it sounds like excuses from Christian extremists regarding incidents like the killing of the doctor who performed abortions were under reported, or at least not noticed by many. I attended my sister's church as a guest (she is Christian) and the pastor discussed why the rationale "the end justifies the means" (the notion that by killing this man other lives would be spared) should not be tolerated, giving examples of other churches supporting the act. Most Christians would denounce this act to the extreme - would we want to make the smaller radical group's ideals our version of the whole of Christianity?
Citizen, I love this:
And why there's so much we-in' and theyin' on this board, and so precious little beatitudin' and lovin' thy neighbor, as thyself?
John: I haven't done any kind of proper relative count of incidents, and probably neither have you. If we were to tote-up all the atrocities committed in the name of Religion, we'd be here a Mighty Long Time. I seem to recall that Genghis Khan was planning to kill several million conqured Chinese infidels -- 'til his advisors reminded him that dead people don't pay taxes. ;-) A pragmatic ruler, he was.
Many, many people misapprehend what their religion commands -- recall the evening vespers scene in Inherit The Wind? Fictionalized, of course, but not far from the mark.
Otherwise, we are in pretty violent agreement that it's extremism in all its forms that is our common foe. I also agree that no one should have to hide their beliefs -- although I do hafta note a recent trend among those who wear "it" on their symbolic sleeves to try to force their cultural views on others, in the name of their Lord.
Anyone who doesn't consider Islam more evil than Nazi Germany hasn't read the Koran or the Hadith. Hey folks, this political-correctness will destroy you and this country. The Constitution is not a suicide pact. How many more attacks on this country will need to take place before Islam is banned in this country? Don't have time to read the Koran or Hadith? Then read a biography of Mohammed and see for yourself what an evil, violent, lustful, backstabbing man he was.
Two more things. God-hating atheists in the 20th century (Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot, etc) murdered more people in the 20th century than all of the people in history than have been killed under the guise of religion since the start of time.
And to compare the death of an abortion doctor by a Christian with the mass killings of infidels by Islamic jihadists around the globe is beyond ignorance. The Bible does not order its followers to murder non-believers, but the Koran does. The Koran demands constant war against non-believers until the entire world is under Islamic rule.
Personally, I don't care what anyone believes. But don't y'all move in next door to me. I don't need a target that close, as I don't want to be collateral damage from unfiendly fire. Don't ever get inbetween a radical terrorist and a smiling infidel. My momma didn't raise any fools, but be my guest, be as foolish as you like.
Isn't this a hate crime? Wait a minute Muslims don't hate anyone, the christian provoked the poor inoccent Muslim by being in the mall.
Yikes. I'll come back after recess concludes.
Citizen Paine opines:
"How many folks who ID themselves as Christians wish harm to "the Muslims," in general? I don't know, but I'm guessing it's a Lot more than 100K, world-wide."
Fair enough, I suppose. But now let's ask the question - how many Christians have been killed for their beliefs by Muslims, and then compare it to how many Muslims have been killed for their beliefs by Christians? I think the Muslims will win in the body count competition - unless you want to use a bit of sophistry and claim that US actions in Iraq and Afstan are really all about the troops of a theocratic nation killing true believers - at which point I would expect everyone to stop taking you seriously.
Remember, kiddies - the Crusades were a defensive action - no matter how much apologists would like to rewrite history to make the Crusades a "root cause" for todays extremist actions.
Not all muslims are terrorists, but all terrorists are muslim.
"Can you blame the belief system of 2 billion human beings who live quite peacefully in many countries all over the world for the actions of one obviously unbalanced individual?"
That is without a doubt the most naive statement I have heard other than the nightly news. There are bombings and butcherings almost weekly where there are populations of these cultist.
Having read the Koran it is itself 'unbalanced'. Sure it is peaceful.. as long as you are a muslim. If not then you are but an animal to be slaughtered.
Michele, what about Timothy McVeigh & Terry Nichols? Even John Kaczynski? None of them Muslim, all of them terrorists. To deny that we have our own atrocities born and bred right here is turning a blind eye to potential tragedy here as well.
Nick, to clarify - I don't believe anyone compared the death of the physician that provided abortions as part of his practice to the deaths of others killed by religious extremists. John introduced the topic not as a comparison, but rather to illustrate his point that Christians as a whole denounce such acts, which I commented on. Let's try to keep it real.
Islam is a violent political cult thats want to rule the world and have everyone submit to it. islam means submit. muslims hate infidels and the Cross. Wake up dhimmies and liberals!!!
The Crusades were defensive wars!!!! But muslims have been murdering everyone for 1400 years!!!!
Nukevet: Actually, I was planning on bringing up The Spanish Inquisition -- nobody ever expects that.
And, nobody knows the answer to your inquiry, although I'm satisfied that you think you know it. Regardless, it's a morbid arithmetic, and of very little use to current circumstances.
Now, The Crusades were a defensive action? I can just hear Richard the Lionhearted regaling his subjects: "We're gonna fight 'em over there, so we don't hafta fight 'em here!" Mission accomplished.
The Muslim actions are UNDER represented in the media. I would back that up with the evidence of the latest action at Ft. Hood where within 4 hours, our government determined that this was not a terrorist action. How could then know that in such a short time? You now are getting many commentators talking about 'one crazed individual' even though now he has been shown to have ties to the same mosque as some of the 9-11 hijackers, which preached radical jihad.
I notice that the example you cite was a preacher denouncing the murders, and a vague reference to others who "supported" the action. Why do you emphasize the hearsay and downplay the direct denunciation that you witnessed?
I agree that we are in agreement about the common foe. I appreciate you good honest debate. It is something that we seem to be missing in society today. It would help to get all these discussions out on the table, and I believe we would find that there is a lot more commonality of views.
Got to go. Enjoy the continued discussion.
There are not 2 billion Muslims - probably at most a billion and a large percentage of these would stampede out of the Islamic straitjacket were it not for Islam's kill the apostate law. And according to the CIA fact book there are only about 1.8 million Muslims in the USA, and many of these are Muslim in name only. This 7th century warlike religion is too absurd.
Gosh, I don't know how you folks keep up with this sort of debate!
John, just in response. You and I disagree about whether there is over or under representation in the media - I'm comfortable leaving it at that. I do want to clarify that I didn't mean to devalue the statement by my sister's pastor that the killing of the doctor was wrong regardless of your views on his practice. I took them to heart and was warmed by his heartfelt sermon. My point was that he felt the need to clarify this passive position (even asking for prayers for the shooter and his supporters) given the comments of other "Christians" who supported the act as a means toward an end. My point being that there are people who call themselves Christian, though I would not apply their warped support of the shooter to all Christians. Just as I do not apply terrorist actions to all Muslims.
Multiculturalism ain't it grand! The multicultural apologist never met an anti-America or Christ hater that they don't just fall all over themselves about with excuses. Tick Toc...
Just like the Police Lt there are so many here who just want to be ever so Politically Correct.
It reminds me of the great fuax headline:
"Muslims Fear Backlash Over Tomorrow's Train Bombing"
To deny the fact that the Muslim world is infected with a love afair of death is to deny reality. Oh, it might make you feel like the "Grand Defender of Minorities!" but it's false.
And the other technique of trying to equate all religions as being the same is just so much PoliSci 101 stupidity.
Islam is a violent cult that is in the world to conquer all -
9.29 Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued.
The only sure way to paradise for a muslim-
9.111 Allah hath purchased of the believers their persons and their goods; for theirs (in return) is the garden (of Paradise): they fight in His cause, and slay and are slain
Ernest: sticks-n-stones are not the stuff of dialogue -- there's just no 'content' there. If you can't work with actual ideas, why play at all?
Tim: was that on fuax [sic] news? You seem to be more certain about things you don't know than I am about things I do know.
We are a very multicultural and tolerant country, but we have allowed a people into our land that are not.
Pray for muslims they are in a cult that will killl them if they try to leave it:
4.89 They but wish that ye should reject Faith, as they do, and thus be on the same footing: But take not friends from their ranks until they flee in the way of Allah. But if they turn renegades, seize them and slay them wherever ye find them; and take no friends or helpers from their ranks;
Yes Christians have done evil things in the name of their religion, but guess what the Gospel does not condone it. it.
The quran does.
"And, nobody knows the answer to your inquiry, although I'm satisfied that you think you know it. Regardless, it's a morbid arithmetic, and of very little use to current circumstances."
Well, it may be a morbid arithmetic - but it seemed to be of use to the circumstances when you were offering the opinion that there's way more Christians in the world who want to harm Muslims than the other way around - funny arithmetic, indeed.
And yes, the Crusades, especially the 1st-3rd, were defensive actions. Western Europe answered a plea from Eastern European Christians to help them fight off the invading Muslims - not the other way around. Richard the Lionheart was part of the 5th (6th?) crusade - he entered the fray long after the die was cast. Read a real history of the Crusades some time - it will provide you with a fascinating view of the Caliphate - and perhaps of the motives of those who wish to re-establish it.
As for a historical (rather than political or religious views) of the crusades, try this:
or perhaps this
Madden has a strong reputation as a medieval historian, but also a rather strong Catholic influence (which is not obvious in his writing here - but could be an agent for bias, none the less). Riley-Smith is more secular - but they both reach pretty much the same conclusions. Namely, the Crusades arose out of a need/desire for Western European Christians to stop the aggressive spread of Islam while trying to rescue their Eastern European cousins. They didn't do a very good job - it was the Muslims refusal to enter the economic reality of the renaissance that brought about their collapse - not a bunch of rampaging Crusaders.
C'mon, schaick: are you really gonna force me to look up all those quaint Biblical passages about slavery, adultery and the like? My point being that there's also plenty of material in the Good Book that thoughtful Christians don't take literally to heart -- although a few probably do.
The common problem in this thread, it seems to me, is that folks are forever looking for reasons to separate, to hate and to fear. Obviously, you're free to do so, but you really oughtta test your reality occasionally. If what you claim to believe is true, then where is that crazed, rug-riding, scimitar-wielding, turban-wearing army of Muslims bent on mayhem?
I most have missed them in the Fourth of July parade.
Hey, Citizen Paine,
Since you're so educated in world history, can you explain to me how the lands invaded during the Crusades came to be in Muslim hands? If you do a little arithmetic you'll find that Christians occupied that land for about 600 years before Islam was even established. Muslims probably obtained those lands after calmly talking it's natives into giving them control, right? After all, it is the "religion of Peace".
Wake up, all you militant Muslim apologists. And, stop with the "Oh, he must have been unstable" crap. How many times does the same thing have to happen, committed by the same religious fanatics, for you to admit the truth? Do you enjoy being delusional, or does it just come naturally to you?
Nukevet: thanks for the links. I'll brush up on my Crusades. I certainly have no truck with those who would establish a 21st century caliphate (or its Christian or any other equivalent counterpart -- church and state do their best separately), I just think they're a verry small minority of the overall Muslim population.
I don't like shooting fish in a barrel, so I won't spend any more time reading your posts. By the way, how easy is it to bring up slavery in the Bible? Have you ever heard of a 'straw man'?
Do yourself a favor. Do all of us a favor. Pick up "What Went Wrong: The Clash Between Islam and Modernity in the Middle East" by Bernard Lewis. If you have the guts to return to this post and admit the ridiculous position you now take on this issue, I'll . . . well, I'll welcome you to reality.
RU: I regret your apparent brand of aggressive lunacy more than that of most other extremists -- you, after all, had the chance for a better understanding of the world, and you seem to have squandered it.
And, exactly how have I squandered it? By being painfully aware of the fact that there are a large number of people in this world who adhere to ONE belief system that poses the most visible, dangerous threat to freedom (of everything) in our time.
If you open your eyes you will see that your delusion is the lunacy here. I am giving you the facts you need to understand this issue correctly. And, something like this should be dealt with aggressively. We're not playing patty-cake. How you can fear (excuse me, "regret") open dialogue more than religious fanaticism is at the root of your problem. How can you not see what not only stares you in the face, but from time to time actually punches you in it?
You have misguided regret. Your regret should be that political correctness expressed by people like you is directly responsible for, most recently, the deaths of 13 people at Ft. Hood, and the mall "disturbance". Is that all it was? You can look up the other countless (and increasing) other avoidable instances of criminality (at best) and evil. You do acknowledge such a notion as Evil, correct? Or, is that just a bit too pedantic for you?
The perpetrator of this crime is, by his own declarations, an Islamic fundamentalist of the terrorist stripe.
Let's get past all of this 'PC' silliness and call a duck a duck. The jerk doesn't need a psych evaluation, he needs Gitmo.
But, won't that make him hate us even more? Maybe if we love him, he will love us back.
Dawn, do you really think this man should be sent to Gitmo? For yelling sentiments regarding Islam and grabbing a crucifix off of someone's neck? Shouldn't the punishment be a better fit for the crime, or do we just assume that every Muslim is a terrorist and we punish them before they have a chance to act?
I was in graduate school with a woman who was raised in a Japanese American internment camp (Manzanar I think?). Her father was fighting against Japan in the army, and would come home and stay in the camp with his family when he was on leave. She was baffled at how this could happen - they lost their home, jobs, etc. when they were taken away. The mindset was that all Japanese Americans were threats - basic guilt by association. I can't help seeing a very frightening parallel here.
If "Gitmo" is the prevailing thought on this forum, then where do we draw the line? Every Muslim? Only those that grab a crucifix - and, what if they denounce Jews/Buddhists/etc. - is that as bad?
I am so tired of people equating what "Christianity" did in the Middle Ages (aka The Roman Catholic Church/Theocracy) with what is being done in the last three centuries! Besides those political Crusades (some justified when they went out to kill Muslims who were trying to conquer Eroupe) & the Inquisition (again a government combined with Catholicism), there is no violence against other belief systems. There was violence against blacks during slavery -- but you can't hang that all on Christianity, since it took a combined effort from many countries to make it happen, and Christians are the ones who had a major role in ending it.
Christians believe in being born again -- not being beheaded, shot or blown up to enter heaven. They are risking their lives to be missionaries to Muslims all over the world while Mulsim Mullahs teach in their synagogues to kill infidels if they won't convert & stone their own women for honor. Let's keep the comparisons in this century shall we?
Your "frightening parallel" of Dawn's opinion to Japanese internment is invalid due to the fact that the U.S. Government (as well as every right-thinking American) denounced these acts years ago. She is not advocating imprisoning those of a specific religion or ethnicity (along with their families) who have not committed any crime.
On a technical note, there is no way your friend's Japanese father could have fought against Japanese while he was in the army. Japanese-Americans were deployed to Europe for obvious reasons.
If there is any doubt about the unbelievable (to say nothing of highly commendable) restraint exhibited by the U.S. Government and its citizens alike regarding sweeping generalizations of Muslims, especially since Sept. 11th, 2001, it is completely unfounded.
Considering the treatment that is given to Americans in many Muslim countries (some of whom receive billions in aid from us), it is a testament to America that Muslims rarely suffer more than the "snickering at his traditional garb" that was "suffered" by the Ft. Hood shooter.
RU: your posts reek of a closed-mindedness that makes you part of the problem, and condescension that makes you simply not worth the effort of any further response. There are just too many misperceptions, and you're happy with them, so go with your god (and please be grateful that others are in-charge).
Who said anything about "my god"? Please stop your projection of "lunacy" and "closed-mindedness" and look in the mirror for once.
Give me an example of my close-mindedness instead of throwing inaccurate labels and generalizations, hoping something sticks. Your wheels are really falling off here, CP. Get control of yourself and stick with the issue, please.
If you feel that you are being condescended to, it is simply because you cannot keep up with the facts and specifics of the issue at hand.
Believe me, I'm trying to help you. If you choose to see that as condescending, then you obviously have a low opinion of yourself.
A very fair mention of the Spanish inquisition - I sort of let it pass as snark when mentioned earlier - but the real brutality of the Spanish inquisition came when it was used as a tool of government, not religious, oppression. It was the Catholic church that ended most of the real brutality of the Spanish inquisition. But what everyone remembers is Torquemada and his reign of terror during the first 15 years of the inquisition - not what happened for the remaining 335 years of it. The Spanish Inquisition was initiated by Ferdinand II and Isabella I to oversee and enforce forced conversions (Jewish and Muslim) to Christianity. They did this because they felt the medieval inquisition, under papal control, was too lenient when it came to the matter of converts. If you want a real example of Christian brutality - look to the witch trials - they killed far more innocent people than the inquisition. But, that was Christian on Christian violence - so not really very good for advancing the preferred narrative.
And, for the record - no, I'm not a Catholic or anything else - pretty strongly in the atheist camp myself.
Of COURSE it was snark, esp. since you anticipated several straw responses (but not, of course, the SI). Web Link
Are there really no Monty Python fans on this board? Too unAmerican or something? Yikes.
/time to go sit in the comfy chair.
Go ahead and put up with this Muslim garbage. Then you will wonder why everyone goes online to shop tax free. And harassment free!
NOBODY expects the Spanish Inquisition....
Why did Lt. Elerick feel that it was necessary to compare a Muslim thug to Christian demenstrators. Do the Christians assult people? Do the Christians steal religious items from other people? It is time to stop making excuses for Muslims. This political correctness garbage has to stop. This was a minor event however, there have been too many violent attacks that have ended in death from supposedly peaceful Muslims. They need to get their house in order.
Dawn, what a shame. A snatch of a necklace and off with their heads it is. No big surprise there, but I had hoped for something more than a knee jerk reaction given time to actually have a though in that head.
Citizen Paine, good luck! I give up - my husband keeps telling me that the people who post on this forum with the prevailing "get all of them before they get us, just in case that is what they are thinking" mindset are merely the lunatic fringe.
God, I hope so.
Sharon: backatcha! Thanks for singing this wilderness duet with me.
Anonymity is both a strength and a curse of on-line conversation. You do get to know folks' unedited stuff, but it's so often ugly when they don't have to attach their real names and reputations to it.
Keep the faith, infidelle!
Julio said "Can you blame the belief system of 2 billion human beings who live quite peacefully in many countries all over the world for the actions of one obviously unbalanced individual?"
Hey, Julio, lets say only 1% of Muslims are extremists! Hey, that's only 2 million Muslim extremists who may take the Koran literally which says to slit the throats of all us infidels if we won't convert?
Sharon: It is not just " a necklace", it was a crucifix, a very important religious symbol. Your attempt to downgrade what this criminal did, and his hate crime, shows you are actually the "lunatic fringe" minority. God bless America.
Catholic, would the punishment you so eagerly dish out be the same had this person grabbed a Star of David? How about a symbol of gay pride - perhaps some rainbow rings? What about a symbol of Kwanzaa? Are you a champion of all groups that have faced oppression, and would you imprison anyone (not just a Muslim) who commits what you feel is a hate crime against anyone from an oppressed community or group?
I don't mind one bit that you consider me the lunatic fringe here. In present company, I gladly distance myself. I am unwilling to persecute billions of people due to the actions of a radical minority. Just as I am unwilling to view all Catholics as narrow minded and judgmental, in spite of being familiar with your consistently judgmental and hateful contributions to this forum.
Hey! I think I would rather be "infidel" than "lunatic fringe." It's much more interesting.
Thanks Citizen - and good luck AGAIN with the fringe! I'm going to go watch some Monty Python in MY comfy chair.
You all sound like FREAKS!!!!! Balance people, balance. I think there is a lot out there we are clearly not aware of, but there has been for years..... So what do you think of 2012!
We should look to Europe to see what will happen with the US in the future. In Holland for example, politicians who have publicly criticized Islam have been killed, or are under death threats, and need to have security night and day. Any ordinary person who criticizes Islam or the Koran can be accused of a hate crime and jailed. The eventual end point is that Islam seizes control of the political processes, and Islamic Law is in place. Think that's so far fetched? There are plenty of accomodating dhimmis like CP in Europe, people who help the process along, and who end up in the end being enslaved in Islamic shackles. What is happening in the US is the first stages of this process - attacks on the military and civil government, and assaults of the citizenry. We have also reached a second stage - anyone who breathes a breath of criticism of Islam can be accused of racism, and fired from their job. Remember this!
Islam is NOT a race! Islam is a religion. Therefore, you should not be accused of racism...Also, realize that the Koran allows Muslims to deliberately lie to infidels, in order to deceive them. This is considered part of Islamic war, and is called Taqiyya. CP, tonight's guest Taqiyya commentator, is doing exactly that. Be aware, understand Taqiyya, and realize it is deception meant to confuse you, and prevent you from realizing the truth, that there is an ongoing Islamic War on Western Civilization.
This guy happens to be a Muslim. In our recent trip to Jerusalem walling wall my wife was verbally attached by the Israeli guard for wearing the cross and demanded that she leave the site or cover the cross.
300,000 - 500,000 casualties of war in Afghanistan and Iraq has happened since 2001. Where is the justification for killing so many civilians children and old people.
One guy takes a stupid crucifix off a woman and its news because he was Muslim. What about when people get robbed and mugged all the time. They take away jewelry and never get caught.
You just need a reason to voice ur hatred towards Muslims as they have been stereotyped since 9-11. Instead of war on Al-quaeda, its war against "islamic" terrorists, Most Muslims don't even consider terrorist AlQuaeda being part of their religion. These terrorists are Munafiqeen.
If citizen paine would take the time to follow news from around the world he would find that there is a massive amount of unrest and violence almost anywhere you have a large population of muslims.This is a fact. Since I already know what the inane response to this statement will invoke from fool's such as yourself please note I didn't say "all". Attempting to take the high ground becomes a worthless exercise if you bury your head in the sand when you get there. The high ground requires that you keep your eyes open so you can survey the scene with a realistic and honest appraisal. As I see the world if given the option to live amongst christians or muslims the only sane answer would be christians and I'm not a christian.
Here is a list of muslim terrorism acts that only goes to 2004. Are "all" muslims bad people. No they are not. Are all christians good people. No again. I also don't care what atrocities any religion perpetrated hundreds of years ago. I wasn't alive then. At this point in history muslim atrocities far outweigh anything done by christians or any other religion. This is a fact. Tolerating terrorism has never and never will lessen it. Why aren't the 99.995% of muslims doing everything they can to stop this scourge within their own religion? If they are I don't see it. And believe me I have looked. Hmmmm!
Here's an example of a Jihad verse in the Koran, which is why Muslims are out to kill us - "allah" their moon god commands it:
"Kill non-Muslims wherever you find them. Lie in wait and ambush them, seize and capture them using every stratagem of war." - Koran 9:5
And, for all you MoonBat Muslim Apologists out there, there are no analogous verses in the Bible that order the mass-murder of everyone except Jews and Christians. So, don't bother.
Only Islam orders the annihilation of all other peoples, who are called "Infidels" and "Unbelievers" in the Koran. No other belief system does that. Well, except Nazism.
Sharon: How is it "judgmental and hateful" for me to object to your characterization of a crucifix as "just a necklace"?. In fact, your characterization of the crucifix as "just a necklace" is extremely judgmental and hateful. And yes, to answer your question, I would be as upset if someone grabbed a Star of David off a victim, or other religious symbol. I have compassion for all, unlike you, who have no compassion for people who have different views than you. God bless America!
Hysterical to see the brainwashed / brain dead muzzie apologists and their totally typical knee-jerk reaction. Next, I suppose, the Kenyan-In-Chief, Obongo, will go on TV to ramble around and everntually tell everyone not to jump to any conclusions, after all, this guy MIGHT be a Presbyterian, or a Buddhist... just because he calls out the name of a pagan god, displays his violent hatred Christians, and commits acts of assault... well gee, why assume he's a muslim?
Waht is interesting is seeing people try to justify a religion of hatred, anger, violence and oppression, by saying, "Well, not ALL of the followers do that!" Sure... and Hitler was kind to his dogs... so that makes it all OK.
Catholic - I figured you would mischaracterize something. YOU posted that it was "just a necklace" that was torn off - if you had bothered to actually read my posts you would see that I NEVER made that statement.
When I referred to your "judgmental and hateful" statements in this forum, I was including your recent ridiculous tirade against "Lisa" in the forum re: the break in at St. Isidore's. Charming way you resorted to judging and name calling, you wonderful Catholic, you.
Sharon: It was "ridiculous" to be upset that a criminal broke into my church, ransacked it, and messed with the sacred Tabernacle? It was "ridiculous" to thank the Danville Police for doing a great job in catching this criminal who committed a hate crime? Wow, you seem to have a lot of misplaced anger issues. God bless America!
So it beings..remember? This is time the attacks will be from within. And it does not matter what religious beliefs you have have not, the Islamics want total and complete control..this is one the tip of the iceberg..the sleeping giant is waking and people are not ready for what is to come. This is not tolerated and you Christians should be ther fo rteh trial and stand up for yourselves, stop playing the coward...defend yourselves, you could be next...shame in a country that wa founded on the Judeo-Chrisian principles and you sit idle allowing the very things that is going to destroy everyting that we have strived for and worked for....
Do you ever wonder what is in those mosques that we are not alowed to enter and that the police are not allowed to enter?? and that no one else is alowed to enter? Kind of curious...
Nice sidestep there, Catholic. You missed the part where you apologize for wrongfully accusing me (rather than acknowledging your own post) of downplayng the significance of your own religious symbol. And, once again, you got it wrong. I said your tirade against a non-catholic who refrained from defaming your character or judging you when you did just that to her was ridiculous. You can be as upset as you want about the break in - but can you do so without attacking the character of others who still believe they have no right to judge?
How about you try responding to actual comments made rahter than twisting them into a personal attack?
Sharon: reasoned, dispassionate judgment will simply never appeal to the mob that gathers here. Chicken Little had it wrong, folks.
God Bless America, indeed -- and God help us. I have always been partial to the message of a later verse in America, The Beautiful that goes something like this:
"Confirm thy soul, in self control -- thy liberty in law."
So may it be. Over/out.
Citizen, always a pleasure. Thanks for providing some reasoning among the rhetoric.
has anyone noticed a disproportionate amount of violence committed by muslims recently? I really wish we could all live in peace with one another but I think it unwise to avoid the reality of the situation.
Why do you label a group with whom you simply disagree a "mob"? Are they ripping religious symbols of other people off their bodies and shouting dogma in the middle of crowded malls? And, self-control (oftentimes to a sadly self-destructive degree) seems to be the order of the day for this country.
"Reasoned, dispassionate judgment" is great. Unfortunately, many of the people whose actions you evidently minimize exhibit far less of it than people who post their opinions on newspaper websites.
But, thanks for your consistency. I can always count on you.
YOU stated: "A snatch of a necklace and off with their heads". Look up in the postings if you have forgotten. Similar quotes were indeed posted by others who, like you, have little respect for the Catholic religion, and show an insensitivity to our sacred symbols.
I would suggest that you and others on this post look into why you can forgive anything done in the name of the Muslim religion and condemn much which is Christian/Catholic. You are aiding in an active effort to attack Christianity (a true religion of peace). When will affronts to Christianity be responded to in the same way as affronts to Islam? You can immediately see who is the more tolerant.
You also make reference to "lunatic fringe". (You may find there are many more than you expect in that category you define) I take offense to that label being used against those posting here. You reduce yourself to name calling when you have no arguments. I see a lot of this going on by the left in an attempt to discredit the person instead of the arguments. I do think that you "protest too much".
get this terrorist trash out of our trivalley backyard. i'm send of bending over for these losers. politically correct people are to blame for this garbage. THEY can go live in their so-called "peaceful" countries and then come home then tell us how they love America. NO MORE LEFTISTS.
hey everyone should go to his trial and wear a cross in the audience. sick of you lefties who tolerate such people.
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