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Community Presbyterian leaves mother church, joins Evangelical group

Original post made on Aug 2, 2012

Danville's Community Presbyterian Church recently seceded from its mother church in favor of joining a more conservative organization. Amid differences in opinion on gays in the clergy and abortion, CPC split from Presbyterian Church USA and moved to Evangelical Presbyterian Church on June 3.

Read the full story here Web Link posted Wednesday, August 1, 2012, 4:43 PM

Comments (67)

Posted by Alamo resident, a resident of Alamo
on Aug 2, 2012 at 8:26 am

You do not have any comments because you are not posting any. Welcome to the Valley of Denial.


Posted by Community member, a resident of Alamo
on Aug 2, 2012 at 8:42 am

All that needs to be said is on the website. Welcome to the Valley of Truth.


Posted by JJ, a resident of Danville
on Aug 2, 2012 at 8:49 am

96% voted to secede? It's truly a very sad day for this once lovely community.


Posted by bl, a resident of Danville
on Aug 2, 2012 at 9:05 am

Valley of intolerance.


Posted by Sassy, a resident of Danville
on Aug 2, 2012 at 9:06 am

This is very disappointing news. I really thought we lived in an enlightened community.


Posted by San Ramon Resident, a resident of San Ramon
on Aug 2, 2012 at 9:07 am

I agree with Alamo resident, come out of your closet and open your hearts to all of God's children. It is inconceivable that women are treated as second class citizens in the evangelical Presbyterian Church. Do these women realize this in the Danville community? We should be thinking for ourselves not told what or how to think. The scary part is how do these people react to having an LGBTQ person in their family? Suicide rates are highest among those not accepted.

A former Presbyterian and supporter of all of God's children.


Posted by CPC Member, a resident of Danville
on Aug 2, 2012 at 10:00 am

Come on people, wake up and smell the coffee. Do you really believe that 96% of 1000 people would have voted for it if it was just about gays in the clergy? That would be a sad day, but fortunately that is nowhere near the truth. The reasons were far bigger and more complicated. If you want to know the truth, read it on the CPC website.
Web Link


Posted by CPC Member, a resident of Danville
on Aug 2, 2012 at 10:03 am

The weblink below is to the truth on the CPC website.
Web Link


Posted by Embracing All, a resident of Danville
on Aug 2, 2012 at 11:21 am

CPC Members: You do good deeds for the community, but you stop short
of Jesus' message of inclusion for all. There are local faith communities supporting and affirming all of God's children. Take a look at other churches websites in Danville/Alamo. All are welcome with NO restrictions, be it women in the clergy or LGBTQ persons.
Embracing All


Posted by Sad, a resident of Danville
on Aug 2, 2012 at 11:48 am

Our family attended CPC for 30 years and we had been bringing up our 3 young children now in the church. The CPC member above says the issues may be about more than discrimination against gays and women, but our family was so disappointed by this attitude we completely lost interest and faith in our church. It made me sick. We stopped going because our hearts just aren't there anymore. Whatever pastors think this is the "right" view to take are so messed up. If their own child was gay, would that make their child not made by God?? Would they turn their own child out on the street or try to "convert" them back? Are their kids in Danville not allowed to have any gay friends? These are supposed to be our "faith leaders"! What's wrong with them???

They do a thing at the church where people go out and dress up as homeless and experience what it's like to be ostracized- then they come back to the church and make a video about how wrong it is to snub people you don't even know because we're all "children of God". WTF? How do you think gays feel when you ostracize them?! Oh sorry- guess they're not children of God! Right?


Posted by Marie, a resident of Danville
on Aug 2, 2012 at 12:26 pm

The whole issue with the GL life style choice is very annoying. They are trying to push their ideas and opinions on others.

I am very conservative and believe that marriage is between a man, a woman, and God. That doesn't mean that I want GLs to be treated differently.

I do not push my religion on anyone and I don't want anyone telling me how I should feel or think. Classrooms should not be talking about marriage nor sexual preference! Everyone should just mind their own business and let others live the way they want.


Posted by Carolyn, a resident of Blackhawk
on Aug 2, 2012 at 5:38 pm

For those of you who choose not to educate yourselves by actually reading the information available to you, here is something directly off the EPC website:
1) homosexuality is a sin; and 2) God forgives repentant sinners.
CPC is not saying a person who is gay is not created in God's image, just that their free will has led them down a sinning path. Also, CPC and its clergy preach and teach their members tolerance towards all sinners. (Those of you without sin cast the first stone...)

Also, with regard to women, has CPC fired their female ministers? NO! The EPC leaves it up to each congregation to decide on the female issue and obviously, we have chosen that females are an integral part of our church. BTW no women are important in the Catholic Church and I don't see any of you dissing them!!!

If you thoroughly read everything, you will understand that CPC has chosen to be connected with traditional Christian values that follow what the Old and New Testaments teach us, so get a grip!


Posted by R Mann, a resident of Alamo
on Aug 2, 2012 at 7:48 pm

R Mann is a registered user.

I was truly appalled at reading about CPC's official stance, especially in our well-educated community. This kind of attitude toward our fellow travelers on this earth is bigoted, short-sighted and just plain unkind. I think Jesus was pretty clear on not judging another as unworthy. So much hatred is spread in the name of Christianity!!

Rosemary


Posted by Tracy, a resident of Danville
on Aug 2, 2012 at 8:16 pm

Marie - I agree completely! Everyone should mind their own business and let others live their lives and love who their hearts are joined with - regardless of gender. I won't make decisions that impact whether you can marry the love of your life - and I would appreciate it if you would not impose your values on me or my family either.

Carolyn - I so hope if you are a parent, your kids are as straight has they come. With the bullying and suicides that plague the LGBT community, kids who are not hetero need parents who are capable of reasoning away from the ridiculous notion that love for another is sinful. With all due respect - you clearly need to "get a grip."


Posted by Bill, a resident of Danville
on Aug 3, 2012 at 6:32 am

The idea of "Traditional Christian Values" is quickly becoming something akin to code words for a intolerant, right wing, view of the world. As some have said it is truly a sad day for our Danville neighborhood. We attempt to teach our youth to be tolerant and to accept others and then the adults show what hypocrites they truly are.


Posted by Tracy, a resident of Danville
on Aug 3, 2012 at 8:03 am

Bill, I understand what you are saying completely. However, my sister is Christian to the core, and would never support a spiritual community that felt lesbian/gay couples were to be "tolerated" or loved in spite of their "sin." I'm not sure whether she would consider herself a traditional Christian or not, but she would not be remaining with (the former) CPC given their stance.

I also don't think we are a valley of intolerance. I think the comments of others on this thread in particular make that clear. This restores my faith in my neighborhood.


Posted by San Ramon Resident, a resident of San Ramon
on Aug 3, 2012 at 8:44 am

CPC members have referred the public to their website. This is what I found under Reasons For Change #4 Divided Loyaltes and Energies.
The left column shows intolerance. The right column shows love for all. CPC has choosen the left column. Danville families beware.
Love for all


Posted by Elisabeth, a resident of Danville
on Aug 3, 2012 at 8:50 am

Some clarity perhaps: For a Christian to support a gay lifestyle is no different than supporting extra-martital affairs, pedophiles etc. as per the 7th Commandment. God created marriage and the sex act for the purpose of unity and procreation. To endorse anything else is to enable and encourage our brothers and sisters to sin. Who among us would say, "Hey, if Bob want's to sleep around behind his wife's back that's his choice. Let's honor that!" As Christians loving each other means leading each other toward holiness (i.e. Jesus) and not in the other direction. Yes, Jesus is Love, but He's also Truth. It's the later that many find hard to swallow.

TO CAROLYN: regarding your comment that "no woman is important in the Catholic church" - Every hear of Mary? She's kinda a big deal for us, as are thousands of other incredible female saints.

Good luck with the latest denominational split. I give it 15 years until the next hot button issue forces more schism.


Posted by Nancy, a resident of Danville
on Aug 3, 2012 at 9:28 am

The gay etc agenda is NOT to be merely "tolerated." The goal is to convert to their "lifestyle.". Go to the gay etc SF parade to see what is coming. Good for the church's stance---let's go to chick-fil-A off Travis Blvd in Fairfield to celebrate the awakening of this wonderful group!!!


Posted by Bill, a resident of Danville
on Aug 3, 2012 at 9:35 am

Wow, there sure are some scary religious fanatics here in the Valley. For Nancy, there is no goal for anyone to convert to their lifestyle. The use of this moniker is fear based and intolerant. Enjoy your fast food chicken.


Posted by Huh?, a resident of Danville
on Aug 3, 2012 at 9:49 am

"The whole issue with the GL life style choice is very annoying. They are trying to push their ideas and opinions on others.
I am very conservative and believe that marriage is between a man, a woman, and God. That doesn't mean that I want GLs to be treated differently."

--Actually, that's exactly what it means. And by you choice of words you expose the fact that you are the one who is "pushing..ideas and opinions on others."

The "GL lifestyle" you refer to is no different than the "left-handed lifestyle" or the "heterosexual lifestyle" - it's what people are born with. It's not a "lifestyle" or a "choice."

All the "GL's are "pushing" is to be treated like everyone else. How presumptuous of them!

The overt bigotry demonstrated by haters who cloak themselves in the undeserved mantle of "righteousness" exemplified by people like Nancy is no different than the sanctimonious justifications the KKK gave for lynchings and cross-burnings in the South.

Who really thinks that Jesus would approve of these hypocrites?


Posted by Marie, a resident of Danville
on Aug 3, 2012 at 9:50 am

Bill: it sounds as if you are one of those who are trying to push your agenda onto others. It is wrong to talk about sexual preference in our schools. Everyone agrees that bullying is wrong, but your group only wants to make bullying GL wrong. I don't get it. Those who voted for prop 8 are not intolerant; they just want you to keep your personal business to yourself.

Elisabeth: Thank you. I couldn't have put it better, & love your interpretation.


Posted by Marie, a resident of Danville
on Aug 3, 2012 at 10:11 am

The Chick-fil-A situation is a perfect example of the GL pushing their lifestyle onto others. I do not tell my friends to meet in public to kiss at the same time and place knowing that it would make others feel uncomfortable. I do not tell people that they have to get married by a priest to form a bond between one man, one woman, and God.

The GL group is trying to hurt a businessman who only voiced his opinion. That is WRONG. The GL group is trying to rewrite our History books. That is WRONG. They are pushing their lifestyle on our children. That is WRONG!


Posted by Tracy, a resident of Danville
on Aug 3, 2012 at 10:17 am

Elisabeth, per your comment "God created marriage and the sex act for the purpose of unity and procreation" I have a question. If a person is unable to procreate (for example, a woman who had had a hysterectomy), should they then not be able to marry? No chance of procreation there - so what say you?

Nancy, If you go to pride weekend you are attending an event welcome to people of all orientations (I'm straight and am welcome there with my husband) - hosted by the LGBT community. No one is trying to convert you - but it should be obvious that there would be an openness to LGBT relationships. Would you go to the Danville 4th of July parade as an out of towner and make the assumption that we want to permeate the rest of the universe with small town culture? Of course not!

btw - thanks for the location of the Chick Fil A - I don't eat garbage so I wasn't aware of locations, but I just might show up and kiss a girl.


Posted by Marie, a resident of Danville
on Aug 3, 2012 at 11:03 am

Tracy: don't forget that a hysterectomy is an act of humans, not God. God performs miracles every day. He gave us the ability to make choices. Let's all try to make good choices that respect all life!


Posted by Julie, a resident of Danville
on Aug 3, 2012 at 11:26 am

To San Ramon Resident:
If you are going to pull excerpts from the CPC website, please read more carefully. Both the left and the right columns are examples of PCUSA organizations working against each other. Reason #4 that CPC chose to leave PCUSA was because of all the infighting. That was the point of the article. CPC chose not to be part of the infighting but to leave and to go the EPC instead.


Posted by Huh?, a resident of Danville
on Aug 3, 2012 at 12:50 pm

"The Chick-fil-A situation is a perfect example of the GL pushing their lifestyle onto others. I do not tell my friends to meet in public to kiss at the same time and place knowing that it would make others feel uncomfortable. I do not tell people that they have to get married by a priest to form a bond between one man, one woman, and God.

The GL group is trying to hurt a businessman who only voiced his opinion. That is WRONG. The GL group is trying to rewrite our History books. That is WRONG. They are pushing their lifestyle on our children. That is WRONG!"

This is a classic example of bigotry that has so overcome a person's mentality that she is unable to recognize the absurdity of what she says.

A businessman "voiced his opinion" - which she agrees with, so it's his right, even though that opinion made others "uncomfortable."

Those others expressed their opinion in opposition, which Marie disagrees with, so that means that they're "pushing their lifestyle."

Marie - you're the one who is "pushing a lifestyle" - except you're pushing to have the law favor those who are on "your side" and discriminate against those you disagree with. You only recognize the right to express opinions you agree with, and condemn those who express opinions you don't like.

You are "pushing a lifestyle" of bigotry on our children. Shame on you! Insisting that those who are discriminated against should remain quiet while bigots rant in public is not "minding your own business" - it's supporting bigotry. That is WRONG.


Posted by Marie, a resident of Danville
on Aug 3, 2012 at 1:53 pm

To Huh?:

I am not pushing anything, nor am I insisting anything or ranting in public. Don't manipulate my words to fit your agenda.

Yes, a businessman answered a question being open and honest knowing that it may jeopardize his business. He is not pushing anything on anyone. He has been very respectful and probably regrets the whole thing. But we live in America, he is free to say what he wants. He did not hurt anyone. He did not threaten anyone. You don't have to listen. You don't have to agree.

It's so sad that we live in a world where people blow things way out of proportion, where the gang mentality does things they would never do alone. Mind your own business and ignore things that bring you down.

I am not pushing a life style nor my religion on anyone, go back and read my words. I want marriage and sexual preference to stay out of politics, school, and media.


Posted by Elisabeth, a resident of Danville
on Aug 3, 2012 at 2:00 pm

Tracy - the Catholic Church requires every marriage be open to new life, and that's all that God requires. After all, God is Life and who would want to eliminate God from anything, especially marriage. It's quite possible that a persons childlessness means God has chosen another mission for him/her..adoption, foster parenting, etc. Children are a blessing and a gift, not a commodity we're all entitled too have.

Marriage has two aspects, the unitive and the procreative. To enjoy the unitive without the procreative is like sexual bulimia....enjoying the experience but avoiding the nutrients. This is why the Church condemns artificial contraception (as ALL Protestant churches did just a number of years ago) and why "gay marriage" is as possible as a"square circle."

Hope that helps!


Posted by Loiuisw, a resident of Danville
on Aug 3, 2012 at 3:22 pm

It is not intolerant to want to adhere to the beliefs of a particular religion. It is what they believe. If you don't agree then don't join or belong to that organization. To label a church or a person as right wing or intolerant is very judgemental and also a form of discrimination. It is ok for those with opposing opinions and beliefs to name call and denigrate someone for their traditional or conservative beliefs since the maintstream media does it all the time. I don't care what people do in their private lives, or if they are gay or straight or bi or transgender. But I do have a right to believe what I do without fearing the labels that the so called more "enlightened" use.


Posted by Tracy, a resident of Danville
on Aug 3, 2012 at 3:33 pm

Elisabeth, I grew up in the catholic church and am exceedingly familiar with the beliefs thereof. Many of my family members are still Catholic and they don't support your position at all.

This statement which you made:

"Marriage has two aspects, the unitive and the procreative. To enjoy the unitive without the procreative is like sexual bulimia....enjoying the experience but avoiding the nutrients."

makes my point exactly. No woman who has had a hysterectomy can conceive a child. Should she therefore be prevented from marrying? Or should she just be prevented from "enjoying the unitive"? When you say that couples like this can adopt - may I remind you that same gender couples may also adopt. If hetero couples who are unable to conceive a child are considered to have a different mission in God's eyes, then why is the same reasoning not applied to same gender couples?


Posted by Dave, a resident of Danville
on Aug 3, 2012 at 5:01 pm

It seems like anyone who disagrees with Marie has an "agenda."


Posted by Danville resident, a resident of Danville
on Aug 3, 2012 at 11:32 pm

There are at least four church/synagogues in Danville that open their doors for ALL God's children.


Posted by Diablo resident, a resident of Diablo
on Aug 3, 2012 at 11:51 pm

Dear Sad: Congratulations for seeing the injustice at CPC and acting on it. Your family is now free to think for themselves.
Praise the lord!


Posted by BILL, a resident of Danville
on Aug 4, 2012 at 9:40 am

TO: Diablo Resident and Sad,
Thank you for so clearly stating the bottom line and the reality of this situation. This subject so clearly brings to light how far we have to go in this area.


Posted by Tracy, a resident of Danville
on Aug 4, 2012 at 9:43 am

Bill - amen.


Posted by MO, a resident of Danville
on Aug 4, 2012 at 11:45 am

"the Scripture cannot be broken." John 10:35 in the words of Jesus

As for God, His way is perfect; the word of God is flawless.
2 Samuel 22:31

If your brother sins, rebuke him, and if he repents, forgive him.
Luke 17:3 in the words of Jesus

1 Corinthians 5:9-13 ( from NIV study Bible notes)
"the church is to exercise scriptural discipline over the professing believers in the church, but it is not to attempt to judge those outside its membership. There are governing bodies in place to judge them, and their ultimate judge is God."

For all those who would rather do Christianity "Lite", with optional belief in the word of God, I guess CPC is not the Church for you.




Posted by MO, a resident of Danville
on Aug 4, 2012 at 11:45 am

"the Scripture cannot be broken." John 10:35 in the words of Jesus

As for God, His way is perfect; the word of God is flawless.
2 Samuel 22:31

If your brother sins, rebuke him, and if he repents, forgive him.
Luke 17:3 in the words of Jesus

1 Corinthians 5:9-13 ( from NIV study Bible notes)
"the church is to exercise scriptural discipline over the professing believers in the church, but it is not to attempt to judge those outside its membership. There are governing bodies in place to judge them, and their ultimate judge is God."

For all those who would rather do Christianity "Lite", with optional belief in the word of God, I guess CPC is not the Church for you.




Posted by Douglas, a resident of Blackhawk
on Aug 4, 2012 at 12:38 pm

Amen, MO!


Posted by Citizen Paine, a resident of Danville
on Aug 4, 2012 at 7:11 pm

The ignorance that masquerades as 'faith' on this board is stunning. Anyone who can consider one's religion to be Absolute, and another person's sexual orientation to be a Lifestyle needs to turn-in his/her pass card to the 21st century -- and the 20th.

I understand why some people Need to consider it so -- to do otherwise would require you to grow to the point of actually accepting folks who are different from you. How much more comfortable it is to call it a choice! Then the consequences of that choice fall on the chooser.

But I have never heard any of those Christians-when-convenient say when They made Their choice to be heterosexual. Because they didn't -- any more than your gay neighbors did. Lifestyle, my patoot.

There is no doubt in my mind where Jesus would come out on this issues, were he to walk among us today -- not with all that angry god/Old Testament crap -- but with his teachings from the Sermon on the Mount. There are much worse guides to living than WWJD. I am utterly confident that he would come out on the side of Love.

You do his message a grave disservice when you forget that.


Posted by Dave, a resident of Danville
on Aug 4, 2012 at 10:26 pm

Thank you for reminding me why I left organized religion many years ago...and you thought intolerance was the exclusive purview of Moslems?!? Reminds me of the bumper sticker, "You shouldn't believe everything you think..."


Posted by Marie, a resident of Danville
on Aug 4, 2012 at 11:27 pm

OPEN YOUR EYES PEOPLE! ALL OF THE NAME CALLING IS COMING FROM ONE SIDE.

Bl said we live in the "Valley of intolerance."

Bill said "Traditional Christian [is] code words for intolerant" and that we are "hypocrites" and "scary religious fanatics"

Huh? compares us to the "KKK", calling us "hypocrites", saying "classic example of bigotry" and that we are "unable to recognize the absurdity of what she says"

Citizen Pain – well I don't read any of his comments!


Posted by Tracy, a resident of Danville
on Aug 5, 2012 at 7:03 am

Marie, what you have are comments from people who are frustrated at the lack of common sense from a group of people who effectively removed the rights of others to marry who they love. The intolerance afforded LGBTQ individuals based on this massively confused notion is appalling, especially when demonstrated under the guise of religion - this is something I find especially offensive.

You say you don't read Citizen Paine's comments, but you would do well to give it a shot. There is a pretty simple statement that intolerant folks seem to avoid: If LGBTQ individuals choose who they were attracted to, then it would seem to reason that you did as well. Did you really face a time in your life when you had to choose whether to be attracted to a man or a woman? I didn't. And neither did my sister - she avoided dating until her 30's, not wanting to deal with intolerance around a relationship between two woman. She has now been in a loving relationship for over 20 years, with a wonderful woman. They contribute to society, they volunteer their time, they took in my nephew when he he needed a place to stay - great people! She did her best to manage without this loving relationship just to avoid dealing with the intolerance of people who "love the sinner but hate the sin." What a shame that the massively misguided ideas of certain people (like yourself) serve to keep others from happiness. On the other hand, we have hetero couples who marry over and over, divorcing often, just because they can.

I doubt this will sink in either - it is much more attractive to avoid the obvious question of when YOU chose to be attracted to men.


Posted by Tracy, a resident of Danville
on Aug 5, 2012 at 7:15 am

Elisabeth - I'm still trying to absorb your notion that intimacy between couples where procreation is not the goal is "sexual bulimia" as you described. I can't get my head around that to the extent that I could follow up with a cogent question/response. I'm baffled at the very idea that intimacy between two people who love each other is not simply a communion of souls in and of itself.

I haven't seen your answer to this simple question: "If hetero couples who are unable to conceive a child are considered to have a different mission in God's eyes, then why is the same reasoning not applied to same gender couples?"

Care to comment?


Posted by cardinal, a resident of Diablo
on Aug 5, 2012 at 7:57 am

@ Tracy: thanks for trying -- yours is a mission worth supporting!


@ Dave: or the bumpersticker:

"Lord, Please deliver us from your most zealous followers"

Amen.


Posted by Marie, a resident of Danville
on Aug 5, 2012 at 10:17 am

Tracy: It sounds as if you have a wonderful family, and I am happy for you and your sister. I agree that the divorce rate in America is way too high. I wish there were a full proof way to find out if a marriage would work before making the commitment; even more importantly, a way to prevent pregnancy to those girls/women that are not ready to sacrifice everything to take care of their offspring.

I have to admit that my opinion on GL have changed over the years. I still believe that the act itself is gross and unnatural; I would never want to discriminate or hurt anyone because of their lifestyle choice. I understand that you would say it's not a choice, but would you agree that a psychopath or sociopath do not choose to be that way, they just are…does it make it right? I'm sorry if that is a harsh comparison because I know there are some wonderful GLs out there.

One more thing, I am not trying to discriminate, close doors, or make anyone's life less than mine. I just believe that marriage is between one man, one woman, and God; and should only be performed in a church with a priest. Sorry! If you want the same benefits, call it something else. I think that most would agree with me on this. Instead, we have all of this head butting and name calling just because you want it your way. Let's have everyone agree and live happily ever after.

As to Elisabeth's comment about "sexual bulimia", LOL… I think that was a very creative spin. Truth is, I was also raised understanding that marriage is for making babies. Pain and simple. But just like Adam and Eve couldn't resist the apple, many can't resist sex.


Posted by Huh?, a resident of Danville
on Aug 5, 2012 at 11:10 am

"To label a church or a person as right wing or intolerant is very judgemental and also a form of discrimination."

And by this logic, it would be "a form of discrimination" to call the Nazis right wing or intolerant as well, correct? I understand that people want to engage in bigotry and discrimination without acknowledging that that's what they're doing, but please, don't complain when others call it what it is.

"One more thing, I am not trying to discriminate, close doors, or make anyone's life less than mine."

Regardless of what you're "trying" to do, what you **are** doing is discriminating, closing doors, and making other people's lives "less than yours."

"I just believe that marriage is between one man, one woman, and God; and should only be performed in a church with a priest. Sorry! If you want the same benefits, call it something else. I think that most would agree with me on this. Instead, we have all of this head butting and name calling just because you want it your way." No, we have this "head butting" because **you** want it **your way**. You insist that **you** have the right to dictate who can and cannot call their loving life commitment "marriage" - with the rights, duties and responsibilities which society recognizes as flowing from that title -and who cannot.

No one has tried to deny you the right to live your life the way you choose. But you complain when others point out that your insistence on telling others what they can and cannot do - and specifically that they should **not** be allowed to do what you **do** have the right to do - is discriminatory, bigoted and intolerant. Well, it is, and that's just calling a spade a spade. The reason you can't see that is that you've gotten so used to the privileges you have always taken for granted that you can't see that denying them to others is wrong.



Posted by cardinal, a resident of Diablo
on Aug 5, 2012 at 11:23 am

"... Truth is, I was also raised understanding that marriage is for making babies. Pain and simple."

Pain and simple? Oh, my -- calling Dr. Freud (and you're doing it wrong).


Posted by Tracy, a resident of Danville
on Aug 5, 2012 at 11:59 am

Marie, I truly believe that you don't really get that when you impose your opinions (marriage should only be between a man and a woman...sex between people of the same gender is gross and unnatural...etc.) on others by supporting the denial of their right to marry, that you are hurting them. I'm not sure where that disconnect is, but it is there. Have you even considered my question regarding when you made a choice to be hetero. Isn't that the logical conclusion if you assume that the LGBT community made that choice themselves?

One place in which we agree, is where you say (in the context of marriage being performed in a church, by a priest and between a man and a woman) that if LGBTQ people want the same benefits, marriage should be called something else. If that's what it takes to level the playing field, I'm all for it. Civil unions for all! Including you and me. My point, which you have effectively skirted, is that if you did not choose to be attracted to men, how can you make the assumption that the LGBTQ community made that decision?

Finally, to make being LGBTQ analogous to being a sociopath or a psychopath is where you lose me completely. How does a diagnosis that is in the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders compare to someone who is attracted to a member of the same gender? BTW (though you would have no reason to know this, and I understand that) psychopaths generally know they are doing something wrong/immoral/illegal, etc. but they reason their way clear to act anyway. It's a dangerous mental pathology. Being LGBTQ is not - it's more of a risk factor for abuse from others.

Yes, I have a wonderful family! We all believe in marriage equality, and not one of us would support the position taken by the (former CPC).


Posted by Tracy, a resident of Danville
on Aug 5, 2012 at 12:01 pm

@ Cardinal, you crack me up!


Posted by Marie, a resident of Danville
on Aug 5, 2012 at 1:23 pm

To Huh?

I consider the Nazis' a gang mentality of killers. What they believe is not the issue. Everyone has the right to believe whatever they want. The problem is when people act on it to hurt or harm others. A perfect example are all of the "world revivals around me" attitudes here in Danville. They gossip and spread lies to hurt others. They have the right to think they are better than others, but are wrong if they act on those opinions to hurt others. Once again, I'm not complaining, just voicing an opinion as are you. You don't have to agree, but you keep on name calling.

To Tracy:

Impose is not the correct word here, because it only makes me think that you are trying to push my buttons.

I guess the answer to your question is "I haven't". I am thankful that I haven't had to consider it because I fall into the norm. If I didn't, then I would have to deal with it. I certainly would not push it onto others to make them feel uncomfortable. I would not be trying to close businesses because I don't agree with the owner's opinion. I would not change the "no bullying" policies to just include my kind. I would not have schools change their curriculums; they don't have enough time to teach the basics!

If you want same sex couples then come up with a new ceremony, Holy Matrimony (marriage) is already taken. If GLs didn't complain about Civil Unions, we would not be having this conversation, but they were not satisfied, they had to have their way and take the church's marriage. Life is full of compromises. I have family members to did not marry in a church by a priest and I think those should not be called marriage, maybe a Civil Union?

As for the sociopath/psychopath comment, it's just my opinion, you don't have to agree; but your comment that they know they are doing something wrong makes my point. Thank you.


Posted by Tracy, a resident of Danville
on Aug 5, 2012 at 2:36 pm

@ Marie - I do try (hard) to give you the benefit of the doubt. No button pushing intended. Please consider this: As you've mentioned, you did not have to decide which gender to be attracted to, and neither did my sister. She didn't say "maybe I'll be attracted to a woman..." and went in that direction. She has always been attracted to women. You are making MY point with your comment.

Yes, sociopaths do know they are doing something wrong, and they are listed in the DSM IV (the manual of mental disorders used by clinicians to diagnosis mental illness). Being gay or lesbian is not doing something wrong (and therefor not knowing you are doing something wrong) and is NOT listed in the DSM IV. Can you comprehend the difference between the two?

You have an odd way of turning a rationale that is pretty clearly against your way of thinking in to something that you seem to feel supports your point. If your points were not hurting others, this would be amusing. As it is, refusing to acknowledge that the love that others have for each other (regardless of gender)is just as sacred as your own, and hiding behind your interpretation of the bible and "WWJD" in the process, is just mean.


Posted by Douglas, a resident of Blackhawk
on Aug 5, 2012 at 4:36 pm

If you are a true Christian and follow the Bible's teachings, GL are sinning. We are also taught to "do unto others..." which means we need to be tolerant of those who are not following God's will. God created men and women to go together and left us free will as well. What we do with that is our choice, but we will all be judged for our choices at the pearly gates.


Posted by Citizen Paine, a resident of Danville
on Aug 5, 2012 at 5:37 pm

Douglas: as to the Bible's text, would you kindly point me to anything that Jesus said that bears directly on the matter of homosexuality? I can find plenty of stuff that bears indirectly, like the Sermon on the Mount, but those statements only seem to reinforce Christ's preference for acceptance among people -- which is my point.

Where do you go in the Good News of the New Testament to find these "teachings?"


Posted by By Jiminy, a resident of another community
on Aug 6, 2012 at 8:22 am

(SFW audio) Web Link


Posted by George Carlin, a resident of Alamo
on Aug 6, 2012 at 9:29 am

At what point does all of this stuff just break down and become a lot of stupid shit that somebody made up?


Posted by Susan, a resident of Danville
on Aug 6, 2012 at 10:30 am

Hey Citizen Paine

For true Christians it is Father, Son and Holy Ghost, and for your reference with regard to the sin of GLs, being you must not have ever read the Bible, here is where you can go:

OLD TESTAMENT
Genesis 18 & 19

NEW TESTAMENT
Romans 1:26-27
Corinthians 1 6:9-10
Timothy 1 1:9-10


Posted by Diane, a resident of Danville
on Aug 6, 2012 at 11:20 am

Susan, would you offer your virgin daughters up to a gay man in order to divert him from sleeping with someone of the same sex, as demonstrated in the book of Genesis?

I think as Christians we need to remember that we don't follow every aspect of the Bible's teaching - it is not the point to pick and choose what best supports our arguments. My own siblings have had relations outside wedlock - the bible doesn't support that either, yet many Christians ignore the parts of the bible that relate to this.

Keep in mind the areas that support stoning people, selling your daughter as a slave, beating your wife, etc. The bible is open to modern day interpretation in areas that we are comfortable with, wouldn't it stand to reason that there are other areas outside our comfort zone that may have been misinterpreted as well?


Posted by Citizen Paine, a resident of Danville
on Aug 6, 2012 at 11:21 am

Interesting, but not really on-point. As to Genesis, it's Old Testament, and if you choose to take those books literally, perhaps you'd let me borrow your slaves for some light housework? I'll return them or kill them -- your choice.

As to the New Testament verses: first and foremost, they are Not attributable to Jesus, but to Paul.

The Romans entry does not refer to homosexuals, but to heterosexuals who were conducting an orgy. It included some W/W activities, performed by those breeders. Paul is condemning the Pagan ritual by a group of former Christians -- he's anti-orgy, obviously (the spoilsport!). Not at all clear, though, that such a passage renders him -- or the Trinity -- anti-gay.

In the Corinthians and Timothy verses, Paul (again, not the Christ) condemns "arsenokoitai," which some much later translators confuse with gay males. It's a rare Greek word, and its uses in other literature refer not to gays, but to pederasts. Few would disagree with that condemnation, as children cannot consent and should not be victimized by anyone of either sex or any orientation.

If those flimsy reeds form the foundation for virulent personal and institutional discrimination against LGBTs, that house is unlikely to stand for very much longer. It certainly doesn't stand-up to even casual, dispassionate scrutiny.


Posted by Dave, a resident of Danville
on Aug 6, 2012 at 11:56 am

It's always a bit perplexing to me when I occasionally hear people say that marriage (or sex) is only fo rprocreation, as Elisabeth and Marie claim above. It just shows that they haven't really thought through their statements.

What about people who marry, but know they are infertile? What about the elderly, who can no longer procreate? Are they forbidden from marrying or having sex?


Posted by Ashley, a resident of Danville
on Aug 6, 2012 at 12:03 pm

I remember hearing while growing up that religion, politics and sex were not good topics in polite and civil conversation. Have a nice day!


Posted by jrm, a resident of Vista Grande Elementary School
on Aug 6, 2012 at 1:33 pm

As an Episcopalian I have seen this conflict first hand and it is always a sad development when a church is divided over issues of social justice and equal rights. CPC has every right to take this direction of course, but it is surprising. As an earlier poster mentioned, there are plenty of churches in the Danville/Alamo area that are inclusive and welcome all worshipers, regardless of sexual orientation. Lastly, to those of you arguing back and forth, you might as well save the time and effort. Like President Obama said, his personal position had been evolving for some time and this is a very personal issue that requires a lot of pensive reflection. I do wonder however, how would a member of the CPC clergy feel if their child was gay and was in a loving and stable relationship?


Posted by Diane, a resident of Danville
on Aug 6, 2012 at 2:48 pm

jrm, I always appreciate your measured approach to this type of discourse. I agree that we are sometimes wasting our breath in trying to help other understand our position (regardless of which side you are on). I think, were it not for the fact that the LGBTQ community has had their right to marry removed by the actions of others who object to the notion of marriage in this population, then I would not bother to contribute.

For me, given my relationship with God, I need to at least try.


Posted by LNM, a resident of Danville
on Aug 6, 2012 at 4:06 pm

Dear Citizen Paine;

I would love to buy you a cup of coffee... tomorrow (August 7) at Starbucks. ;-)

Dear Displaced Presbyterians;

No matter who you are, no matter where you are on your spiritual journey, no matter what life has offered to you or taken from you, no matter your ethnicity or your color or your economic status or your sexual orientation or any other societal divider, you are welcome at Danville Congregational Church. (<-- shamelessly stolen from their website)


Posted by Diane, a resident of Danville
on Aug 6, 2012 at 5:01 pm

LNM - how wonderful! You've made my day!


Posted by Citizen Paine, a resident of Danville
on Aug 6, 2012 at 10:43 pm

Wow -- thanks for the offer, LNM -- unfortunately, I have to be out-of-town most of this week.

I do appreciate your church's approach, as stated. It seems to me that it's best to draw from the common threads of various traditions, and to orient toward inclusion -- your church, the UUs in Walnut Creek and the Unity church in PH come to mind as positive forces for social good. I'm sure there are many others who would welcome refugees from CPC's lurch to the "Right."


Posted by George, a resident of Danville
on Aug 9, 2012 at 12:47 pm

I am straight.and was raised a Catholic. Went to 12 years of catholic schools. Altar boy from 6th grade until 8th grade (even had to learn Latin).

However, my mother was a very religious Catholic and was always using the N word and was very intolerant to other people's ideas, as were many of the Catholics I knew. When I was about 12 years old I completely stopped believing in this religion. I saw how hypocritical religion really was. I would go to church and pickup a bulletin to prove I had been to church.

I now believe that all people are created equal and that if there is a god, this god would frown on the intolerance that is displayed in the 21st century.

When I was young, you would never hear about gays, except when someone used the term Fag or queer. At the time I also was intolerant. In 2004, I was shocked when SF allowed gay marriage.

However, since then my beliefs about this subject have completely changed. I believe that gays should be allowed to marry and have every right to attend any church and have the complete advantages of marriage and all the advantages that go with it (including the filing of Federal taxes as a Joint couple).

I have several relatives and friends that have gay significant others. These couples have children either adopted or from previous marriages (before coming out of the closet). What I see is loving parents and well adjusted kids. These families are often more stable then some of the heterosexual families I know.

The bible is an ancient document and many changes have occurred over the last 2,000 years. Some ideas from the bible are completely out of touch with our modern world.

These people did not learn to be gay, they were born that way just like I was born straight (I do not have any desire to have gay sex). I do not believe gay sex is a sin.

I would never attend CPC, sorry if I am hurting the people who truly believe in CPC.

However, I am tolerant of CPC's views and beliefs, even though I do not agree with them.

There are good points from everyone's views in this forum.



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